Talk:Hors d'oeuvre

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Former good article nomineeHors d'oeuvre was a Agriculture, food and drink good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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DateProcessResult
October 26, 2018Good article nomineeNot listed
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on January 15, 2016.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that hors d'oeuvre trays (pictured) served on a table may be referred to as buffet-style, while those held and passed by servers are part of butler-style service or butlered hors d'oeuvres?
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Incorrect Image[edit]

An image of cooked shrimp is captioned "Poke is a raw fish salad served as an appetizer in the cuisine of Hawaii." Obviously there is a mis-match going on here. Cooked shrimp w/ cocktail sauce can obviously be an hors d'oeuvres, but it is in no way Poke. If this image really is meant to be about Poke, well there's a link right there in the caption, and Poke has a perfectly good image of itself on its own page. 119.237.100.25 (talk) 08:41, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Zakuski[edit]

Who decided that zakuski should be translated as hors d'oeuvres? They are decidedly not, by definition. Hors d'oeuvres presuppose the existence of the main meal, of which they are outside. Zakuski are used to chase vodka, and make up the entirety of the meal. All the food served as part of a meal that also includes vodka is considered zakuski. The most correct translation is "chasers", with the clarification that beverages used as chasers in other cultures do not qualify. EAE (Holla!) 21:44, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

That might have been a confusion of Russian zokuska.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:21, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
I found a source[1] that contradicts the above old claim Eaefremov. The book: "Revisiting the Shadows: Memoirs from War-torn Poland to the Statue of Liberty" by Irene Shapiro, on page 276, the author describes Zakuski as a sour salty hors d'oeuvre. An hors d'oeuvre does not have a true prerequisite and can be defined in many ways. It seems that by definition zakuski is an hors d'oeuvre depending on is use.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:06, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Irene Shapiro (2004). Revisiting the Shadows: Memoirs from War-torn Poland to the Statue of Liberty. DeForest Press. p. 276. ISBN 978-1-930374-06-5.

History section needed[edit]

The reason why I looked up this article was I wanted to read up on the history of appetizers. Basically every wiki article has a history section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.46.110.199 (talk) 11:14, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

inconsistency with Bruschetta[edit]

On the main page of Hors d'oeuvre the image of Bruschetta says origin France, if you go to Bruschetta itself it says it's Italy. I'm not so sure about the origin. Thanks! --huggi - never stop exploring (talk) 08:28, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Italicized[edit]

Should the word hors d'oeuvre be italicized per the MOS?--Mark Miller (talk) 03:30, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Nope. Per the MOS: "...for isolated foreign words that do not yet have everyday use in non-specialized English".. I believe it is safe to say this word is common in non specialized English.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:10, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Jeonchae[edit]

No references found for: Korean jeonchae. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 11:23, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

"outside the work" explained with the progression of this custom[edit]

I think I have the full, historic explanation of the term but please feel free to read through it. It basically has to do with the style of the way a dinner was served all at once with everything laid out on different plates in a very particular and symmetric manner, placing specific, secondary dishes between the main course plates within the main "work" of the dinner service for each guest. The Hors d'oeuvre was introduced during this period on small dishes that were set outside that rigged placement of plated foods or "Outside the work". It took me some time to find the right sources that explained everything and jived with each other but I believe the explanation of etremets evolving into the British "savoury" that took the place of the hors d'oeuvre that was popular before the meal in Europe and was served at the end of the meal and just before the heavier drinking. This fell out of favor when drinks before dinner became popular and cocktail parties began to become popular and fashionable. Americans were late to the party because of prohibition but took the traditions in the current direction we see today with platters of canapés on trays that are sometimes passed around the room. It was a lot of fun to research. I've been wanting to look into this history for a while and was very surprised at the state of the article when TAFI found it. Good catch! Very topical for the season.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:59, 23 December 2015 (UTC)


Māori section incorrect.[edit]

In New Zealand, Entrée means appetizer. Te Reo Māori translation for appetizer is "kumamatanga". Interestingly, the reference given is technically still correct. "Snacks" is also ambiguous. This is my first post on wikipedia. Trickmott (talk) 20:46, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

"Etymology" section should be titled "History"[edit]

A section titled "Etymology" should be about the meaning of the individual words in the term. What is the meaning of the words "hors" and "d'oeuvre" in this context? How did they come to be applied to this particular food item? The "etynology" section of this article covers none of that. It merely gives the history of hors d'oeuvres. Therefore it seems to me that it should be re-titled "History".Beetfarm Louie (talk) 15:20, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Mishmash article[edit]

While it may have occasionally been steered into an article on French customs in particular, the need for a general "appetizer" article has endured for as long as this one has existed. The link "appetizer", used on many articles within its own category, currently redirects to this article. Okay, why this one? I don't often see "hors d'oeuvre" anywhere but according to this article it means "small one- or two-bite items that are served before a dinner", with a distinction between it and appetizers being that appetizers are part of the meal. Bizarrely, the infobox categorizes it under "appetizer" while also using that as an alternate name. It also claims an origin in France, while the "Origin" section of the article itself makes zero mention of this and theorizes on origins in either Russia or China. Whatever happens to this one, a general appetizer article is needed. Restaurants in virtually every country in the world have a form of appetizer. Naturally these all use a local name and feature different dishes, but they're still the exact same thing. Variations can easily be listed within their own national subsections under "By country". Articles like Antipasto and Entrée (made obsolete by the fact that "appetizer" redirects here) all deal with the exact same thing as well, but "Entrée" is clearly less popular than "Appetizer" and "Antipasto" is associated with Italian cuisine. A catch-all title would be "First course", which is currently links nowhere. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 16:00, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

  • Here is the history for the redirect of appetizer. Redirects may be discussed at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion.
  • If there is some opinion that differs greatly from the article and is quoted and attributed to an expert in the field and sourced properly, additions are welcome.
  • Creation of an article for Appetizer is not impeded by this articles well sourced content and was created by a number of different editors.
  • Antipasto and Entrée are not made "obsolete by the fact that "appetizer" redirects here". I seriously don't even understand the statement.
  • The very reason that this French word is used for something people use all over the world is precisely because it was the first name given to a food eaten, in addition to the main dishes, by the French. The English did not use the term "appetizer". Their dinner's had a savory course. Appetizer as a term came about only around the 1920 in American cocktail culture.
  • ""Entrée" is clearly less popular than "Appetizer" and "Antipasto" is associated with Italian cuisine. A catch-all title would be "First course", which is currently links nowhere"". Again, this article is not a wall stopping the creation of any article. The above post was about one opinion referenced to one source but is in no way evidence of any issue this article has to justify a template.
  • "It also claims an origin in France, while the "Origin" section of the article itself makes zero mention of this and theorizes on origins in either Russia or China."". Your not understanding how an etymology works as an origin to a name and how that differs from the theorized beginnings of the traditions, might be the issue here and not the writing or research. I'm also hearing (which you of course didn't actually write but...); "Why bother mentioning all these foreign things and places and just call it..." (obviously paraphrasing). That's a perfectly reasonable reaction from someone who has read the article but doesn't seem to know the general subject. It has a long history and it is a broad subject. Be bold and create First course. Please remember to cite your sources.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:26, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Ligature and final s[edit]

This has been discussed and consensus reached here: Talk:Hors_d'oeuvre/Archive_1#My_research_on_both_the_œthel_and_the_s. Captainllama (talk) 11:07, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Removed italicisation[edit]

'Hors d'oeuvre', though adopted into English from French, has likely assimilated enough into common use in English for it not to warrant italics anymore. Hors d'oeuvre appears in Merriam-Webster Online—which is described in MOS:FOREIGNITALIC as a good rule of thumb for deciding which words may or may not need to be italicised—suggesting that it may now be a loanword of English than a foreign French one.

Italicisation of hors d'oeuvre has been removed from the article to reflect this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by I'llbeyourbeach (talkcontribs) 21:24, 31 July 2020 (UTC)